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My intention is not to critique the movie per se, my intent is to slam it for even being made. I would not be at all surprised if it was an excellent movie. As Filmwiz can surely inform you, "Birth Of A Nation" is tauted as perhaps the greatest film of it's era.
Sorry Harm, but I think you may be slightly off on your comprehension of that passage. The King James can be a real pain with it's Olde English phrasings and bad interpretations. The New International has Luke 22:44 as and His sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground, obviously a metaphoric description.Quote:
Originally posted by Harmeister@Apr 7 2004, 07:36 PM
What happened was more than just a philosophical idea as well, Christ "sweat ... as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22:44). Metaphysically speaking, for a man to sweat one drop of blood is a freaking lot of pain. Enough to put you out even. However, Christ is a God. He was able to endure. It's because of this suffering (in the garden) he can act as our advocate before God at Judgement, not because of what happened on the cross.
Frankly Gethesmane has always appeared to me as Jesus praying for strength in order to make it through His ordeal. He was also asking God to find a way to let Him skip it all together if it was at all possible. I agree that this is indeed suffering of a stressful nature, but nothing like the physical suffering that was to follow...which not only was Jesus seeking to avoid but would cause Him to doubt God on the cross.
Regardless, I have no problem agreeing that Jesus suffered tremendously, or even that He metaphoricly suffered for our sins. What has always troubled me is that religion based on Jesus Worship is what we mostly have today, instead of God Worship and Jesus following. Remember, the only prayer that Jesus ever taught began "Our Father..." thus lowering Himself to an equal level with us and lifting on high God The Father ALONE!
If Jesus were here in the flesh today, I fully believe He would be 1st in line to kick over the table of that money changer Mel Gibson, and rebuke him for pretending to be doing holy work in making millions on a movie that exploited His suffering while ignoring His message.
Quote:
Originally posted by Coz+Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Coz @ Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Sorry Harm, but I think you may be slightly off on your comprehension of that passage. [/b]
On that point we'll just have to agree to disagree. Could be a mataphor, could be real. Until I meet him face to face and ask him, we'll never know. That and I need to learn how to read ancient Greek (which luke was written in). But even then, it'll be interpreted. Nope, We'll just have to wait and ask him.
I have to totally agree with you here. Worship God, our Father, not Jesus, His Son. Jesus is *extremely* important, he taught us all what we need to do, so we follow him. but when it comes down to it we need to worship our Father who art in Heaven and only him. The LDS church recognizes three distinct individuals in the Godhead: the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Each is a God and has all the powers associated with that calling. However God the Father is in charge and Christ and the Holy Spirit are councilors to Him. One in purpose (our eternal exaltation), not one in physical body (think about the baptism of Christ when all three were present individually). Let there be no doubt who is in charge: God the Father.Quote:
Originally posted by Coz@Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM
Regardless, I have no problem agreeing that Jesus suffered tremendously, or even that He metaphoricly suffered for our sins. What has always troubled me is that religion based on Jesus Worship is what we mostly have today, instead of God Worship and Jesus following.
<!--QuoteBegin-Coz@Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM
If Jesus were here in the flesh today, I fully believe He would be 1st in line to kick over the table of that money changer Mel Gibson, and rebuke him for pretending to be doing holy work in making millions on a movie that exploited His suffering while ignoring His message.[/quote]
I Second that.
yep...yep......damn fine discussion......yep...yep....
I hate to keep picking at this subject, but there are some very valid points for worshiping Jesus as we worship God.Quote:
Originally posted by Coz@Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM
Regardless, I have no problem agreeing that Jesus suffered tremendously, or even that He metaphoricly suffered for our sins. What has always troubled me is that religion based on Jesus Worship is what we mostly have today, instead of God Worship and Jesus following. Remember, the only prayer that Jesus ever taught began "Our Father..." thus lowering Himself to an equal level with us and lifting on high God The Father ALONE!
Take, for instance:
John 14:1
"Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me."
And particularly this one:
John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.'"
It's passages like these that put Jesus and the Father on the same level. After all, isn't this the Christian faith? It's not blandly named something like the monotheistic faith.
That may be the point Coz was making, but it wasn't mine (alhtough I see how it could be construed that way). We worship the Father *through* Christ. He is the intermediary.
It's also different if He was in your presense. When Christ was on the earth, especially after He was resurrected and glorified, he was here and we worshiped Him. Now, though we worship God, *through* him. Christ always wanted all the glory to go to the Father.
COZ, you are one insiteful, wise, and intelligent guy!
I have mad respect for you!
I feel what you said about how people worship Jesus and follow the church! That is why I really don't do the church thing. Not say'n it's wrong but the church is like the government to me! GOD says trust no man!
C. yeah you know me!!
I'm gonna have to go through all the posts to really give Chukwuka's opinion to this I just wanted to give it up to the COZmeister!!! I'm not diss'n anyone else from what I've read so far His thoughts are somewhat like mine...
so you believe the world is flat too...dammmmmmmmmnnnnnn
Quote:
Originally posted by Coz+Apr 7 2004, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Coz @ Apr 7 2004, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So, if I took a cross and put it in a glass of urine, it wouldn't mean anything to you? [/b]Quote:
Originally posted by BrianCCXXI@Apr 7 2004, 04:52 PM
That's actually how I see it...and how the people at my church see it...that's why I wear one. Its a symbol of my faith, my love, and how I choose to live.Quote:
Originally posted by Coz@Apr 7 2004, 02:47 PM
I would also disagree with your contention that people see the cross as a sign of salvation, hope, love, or Christ's teachings.* They see an item of worship, plain and simple.* Let somebody desecrate that cross and see what happens.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Easy cowboy. :banghead: My bad here...
I quoted too much of what you said there by accident...this is what I meant to quote...
<!--QuoteBegin-Coz@Apr 7 2004, 02:47 PM
I would also disagree with your contention that people see the cross as a sign of salvation, hope, love, or Christ's teachings.* [/quote]
That's actually how I see it...and how the people at my church see it...that's why I wear one. Its a symbol of my faith, my love, and how I choose to live.
That make more sense now?
I'd probably have to b!tch slap you if you put a cross in urine :slap: ...but you're not the type of person who would do that knowing how I truley feel about it. :bigthumb: See above :stupid:
I hate to keep picking at this subject, but there are some very valid points for worshiping Jesus as we worship God.Quote:
Originally posted by cabotb+Apr 8 2004, 09:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (cabotb @ Apr 8 2004, 09:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Coz@Apr 7 2004, 11:32 PM
Regardless, I have no problem agreeing that Jesus suffered tremendously, or even that He metaphoricly suffered for our sins. What has always troubled me is that religion based on Jesus Worship is what we mostly have today, instead of God Worship and Jesus following. Remember, the only prayer that Jesus ever taught began "Our Father..." thus lowering Himself to an equal level with us and lifting on high God The Father ALONE!
Take, for instance:
John 14:1
"Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me."
And particularly this one:
John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.'"
It's passages like these that put Jesus and the Father on the same level. After all, isn't this the Christian faith? It's not blandly named something like the monotheistic faith. [/b][/quote]
Mind you guys, I'm not looking on any of this as an arguement at all, but a highly enjoyable discussion. I hope you guys see it in the same way. As a matter of fact, having been raised as a practicing Catholic, I still in fact cross myself before and after I pray, and I do indeed pray to Jesus or at least in Jesus' name(though no longer to Mary or saints). As a Christian in what I feel is the purest sense of the term, I have long come to the conclusion that it's all moot anyway. It's not about how you pray, but how you live and how you love! :)
OK... ;)
1st of all...John is the least reliable of all the Gospels. It was written over 60 years after Jesus' death, at a time that the Christian churches were seperating themselves from their Jewish brethren. The Jewish War of 66 to 73AD had already occurred and Jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed. Hundreds of thousands of Jews had been slaughtered and even more dispersed throughout the empire. However, tensions remained at a fever pitch and Jewish uprisals continued throughout. What is more, the growing rift between those Jewish sects that were Christian and those that were not had become a chasm due to the Christians refusal to join their brethren in arms.
Now, the already persecuted new Christian sects (notice that is a plural) saw as a matter of survival their complete seperation and alienation from Judaism. Thus, the extremely obvious anti-Jewish slant of John.
In John, the author is trying to establish Jesus' authority as an intermediary for God. This is essential for a people who are newly and permanently cut off from what had before then been their conduit to God...The Temple. It also served to increase their expansion with a people who had never been part of God's Covenant...the Gentiles. This is why the author begins his book with his essay on the Word becoming flesh.
Regardless, even in this book Jesus is portrayed as intermediary, not as God Himself. Jesus says throughout that we may ask things of Him, but He remains subordinate to The Father.
You used John 14:1 and 14:6. Let us continue.
John 14:15-31
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
"Come now; let us leave.
In these passages Jesus makes it clear that God is greater than He. He also makes it clear that the only way to The Father is to obey His (Jesus') teachings. There is much more even in this book to support this...if you wish I'll add those as well.
Here's a quicky:
Matthew 4:8-10
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'
Again...what sums it all up for me pretty clearly is The Lord's Prayer. All throughout the Gospels Jesus gives glory to God, and God alone. He states that the only way to God is through Him (Jesus), and the only way through Him is through His teachings.
Yet throughout history it has been the teachings of Jesus that have been ignored, the glory of God that has been forsaken, and the worship of Jesus that has been emphasised...something that appears to be completely different from what Jesus intended.
[quote]Originally posted by BrianCCXXI@Apr 8 2004, 02:05 PM
Ahhh...but then you have proven my point. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Coz,Apr 7 2004, 04:24 PM
Sure you see the cross as a symbol of your religion, and through that religion as a symbol of your faith, your love, and how you choose to live. But in reality it's really a symbol of worship and reverance...one that I'm sure you have actually used as an instrument of prayer at times.
There are many of us who believe that people should have the right to burn flags, but desecrate a cross and you condemn them to hell. This because we have never truly worshipped the flag, but we have worshipped the cross for over 1700 years!
My original point is still this. The cross is Constantine's doing...not God's...not Jesus'. If Constantine had decided to use the symbol of the skull representing Golgatha instead of the cross, we would all be bowing down to skulls now. We would all be looking on skulls as representative our faith, love and way of life. And don't you dare dip that skull in urine!!!
Constantine used that cross to wage war, and war, suffering and death have followed it ever since...EVEN UNTIL THIS DAY!!!
This is NOT of Christ, and is NOT of God!
However...I would NEVER put a cross in urine, as I am just as much a victim of tradition as most of us. I just do not go blindly. ;)
I wouldn't bitch-slap / wage war against you...I was just kidding ( and wouldn't have said that if this were an "on-topic" conversation)...in all honesty...it would deeply sadden me.
In my reality...its a symbol of sacrifice...the ultimate sacrifice...for a man to die so horribly for what? Living a life of caring, generocity and love that will never again be matched.
You seem dead set on the concept that the cross is a symbol of suffering, pain, and war...but...just because that's how it was represented by Constantine, and still represented as such today by many, doesn't mean it can't symbolize the opposite...
I thank God everyday for that sacrifice...for showing me how to live...and the cross is the most accurate reminder/representation/symbol of exactly that. As you said, the ressurrection was one of the most important events of Jesus' stay here...if you think about it, the cross represents it...because NO ONE could survive death on a cross...except God's son.
I choose to wear a cross for those reasons...but you don't have to choose to agree.
:peace:
...dig?
No, I do choose to agree...and have a rather large cross that my mother gave me that I actually wear on stage from time to time. I just know the history, that's all.
I'm sure those that wear swastikas find positive reasons to wear them as well. ;)
:bigthumb: phwew...sweet...now I can go back to slacking off at work...
Thanks for the excellent debate though...I don't think I've ever gotten this involved in a post yet...
And I was thinking the EXACT same thing about the swastika earlier...
You know me, I LOVE a good debate! Glad to be of service. :)
*quickly pulls off patch*
Though, now that I reread your post, my point was never that the cross was a symbol of suffering or pain or anything negative...only that it was a symbol of worship...and that only a barbaric people like the Romans could take an instrument of torture and make it their symbol of worship.
It's the tatoo on your forehead that you need to worry about! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:Quote:
Originally posted by Chief Cwictocilacitee@Apr 8 2004, 04:29 PM
*quickly pulls off patch*
"and that brings us back to Doe Doe Doe........"
I concur!!!!!Quote:
Originally posted by Coz@Apr 8 2004, 03:31 PM
Though, now that I reread your post, my point was never that the cross was a symbol of suffering or pain or anything negative...only that it was a symbol of worship...and that only a barbaric people like the Romans could take an instrument of torture and make it their symbol of worship.
Let's get a beer... :beer:
Although that might have a bad interaction with Chief's prescriptions...